Default Servicing: Reducing Risk and Improving Execution

Marvin Stone (00:01)
This is Stewart in the Studio, the podcast where mortgage professionals stay ahead of the curve with expert guidance from Stewart's thought leaders. I'm your host, Marvin Stone, and each month we dive into trends, topics and tech to transform your business. Let's do this. Well, hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Stewart in the Studio. Today I'm again joined by Rich Kuegler, our National Director of Sales. Say hi, Rich.

Rich Kuegler (00:24)
Hi guys.

Marvin Stone (00:25)
And T.J. Harrington, who leads product strategy for the SLS family of companies. T.J., what's new?

T.J. Harrington (00:32)
Man, what isn’t new Marvin?

Marvin Stone (00:34)
There you go. So today we're gonna kind of focus on default servicing, managing risk, decisions and execution under pressure. Certainly tons of pressure in that space, coming from all sorts of different angles, ranging from the economics all the way to compliance and whatnot. But T.J., start by helping us, if you would, help the audience kind of separate the two worlds in servicing. Performing servicing is sort of the day-to-day, payments in, escrow's out, spotting someone in the money for a HELOC or a ReFi. But default servicing is a whole separate world. And those two do those two groups in servicers rarely often talk. I think they're completely separate. So talk a little bit about that to kind of set the table before we get started.

T.J. Harrington (01:16)
So the bread and butter of servicing is it accepting payments from consumers, paying escrows, ensuring everything is going great with the relationship with the loan and the house and the borrower and the way the world works and you know the ebb and flow of that happens, you know, quarterly escrow payments, escrow analysis, taking care of things when something goes wrong with the say hey you have a insurance claim or something else. There's just an ebb and flow that naturally occurs with the life cycle of owning a home and having a mortgage.

You know, what happens if you have a financial difficulty and you have an issue? There's a whole kind of Rube Goldberg machine that kicks off beginning a whole process and waterfall of options for the consumer. And that that whole world is so tightly defined by investor guidelines, by regulatory requirements. It’s a whole different kind of part of the machine and servicing and specialized servicing. The servicers that just do default just really focus on defaulted loans or loans that are having challenges. So really two halves of a whole in a lot of ways. And I know that the front of the house and the performing side, we have a lot of things going on there with the economic challenges just in servicing in general, margin compression, other items. But we also see this growing wave of you know the “lock-in-place effect” we've seen with low rates is finally, finally draining away a little bit. And we see that normal cycle time of death, divorce or other items. And now we see this minting of six to seven percent first lien mortgages that will eventually result in a refinance wave, should rates ever moderate. And we see the market compressing value in those MSRs and looking at retention and recapture. 

And on the default side, we see, unfortunately, consumers in more distress than we've seen in a long time, growing debt loads, early defaults on things like credit cards, student loans, car payments, kind of the canary in the coal mine, so to speak. The canaries coughing. 

Rich Kuegler (03:10)
All the lifestyle things.

T.J. Harrington (03:13)
That’s right. And those things tend to go first and the and the canary's going “Eh eh eh!” But we're not quite there yet with a with a big default cycle, but we're seeing the numbers creep up. So, two halves of the whole beginning to move in different directions.

Rich Kuegler (03:24)
Yeah, it's really interesting too, Marvin. It's a different, you know, T.J. mentioned Rube Goldberg, and it's a totally different game of mousetrap because there is a lot of specialization, some of it driven by investor requirements, some of it driven by servicer practices, some of it driven by what kind of tools are available. And we're really seeing an interest in in ways you can streamline that process, so you get more intelligence up front, better decision-making capabilities earlier in the process so that you have better resolution potential for the homeowners and for the actual lien holders. So, there's a lot of go a lot going on in that respect where really that that kind of driving the data, finding a better way to do it and then trying to get more consistency throughout the process will really help a servicer and in the default part of this part of the cycle as well to be more successful.

Marvin Stone (04:15)
But yeah, and so great points and we're talking about both loss mit and then even further, you know, when things can't be brought when a loan can't be brought back on the tracks, there's a lot to discuss there because you mentioned data and the data's not always good or not always complete. So, you know, the poor servicer has to try to figure out where am I really with this particular loan or this this book of loans? So, there's the data piece, which you know sort of talks about portfolio monitoring and kind of what happens when things go awry. But then there's also the process piece. And that's where I want to focus on a lot because a lot of the technology in servicing is very old and very brittle. And I know you're kind of alluding to that. And T.J. you've talked we've all talked about that a lot, is okay, so if I'm a servicer, that's great. And I've got all these all these compliance rules and regs that just keep getting more complex. And I've got this servicing platform that's not easy to make changes to. And I've got data that I'm trying to sort of reconcile among all these things with all these FTP uploads and downloads. I mean, T.J., where does the servicer go?

T.J. Harrington (05:18)
Yeah, it's so interesting and your word brittle is probably appropriate. What we see is and it, really ICE has been a leader in the in the space with MSP. It's venerable, I think, would be the word technology. It's been it's Cobalt based, it's mainframe based. It's pretty, I mean, I'm not even kidding, it's that old. ICE has done a nice job of building products around it and services around it, but it's still like it's like building around a pinto

chassis, right? It's nineteen seventies best mainframe system and you've been bolting on features the whole time. Now the good news is battle tested. You know, regulators come in, they understand what it can do. And so, you get kind of a blessing from the regulators. Hey, you're using a system that we know is vetted and works the right way with controls that work for work for consumers and prevent harm. But on the other hand, you're locked into an ancient ecosystem whereas you said you can’t do the latest and greatest. And then we see technology platforms evolving. 

You have Penny Mac with their homegrown system. You have Valon storming the stage with their kind of AI-native based system that has not been battle tested and hasn't fully built out their default modules but has lowered the cost of servicing by having automation baked in as a first mover. And really what we see, regardless of what platform you're on and what you're what you're deploying, having a service partner that has everything in house and can deliver in a consistent manner can give you that data upfront, whether it's identifying someone with a propensity to refinance and availability with the right amount of equity in a home. Or hey, there's a bump in the road that the consumer's FICO just dropped forty points. That might mean something bad. Maybe you put them over to the call center for loss mitigation using your AI call agents. You know, there's really a lot of different ways…

Rich Kuegler (06:59)
But that’s a separate episode entirely.

T.J. Harrington (07:01)
Yeah absolutely, yeah yeah yep.

Rich Kuegler (7:05)
Yeah. Yeah, no, you're right. And if you can find and have the ability to find providers and business partners that have multiple areas that they can support, it really helps to streamline the process and helps to take one level of complexity out that that might be an impediment to being profitable.

T.J. Harrington (07:22)
And you know, one thing that we always say at Stewart, and I say this because we've added MCS to the to the market, 'cause I gotta give Jason a shout out. You can't make more money in servicing, you can only spend less. And the cost of vendor management, the cost of administration, the cost of having additional handoffs and having your services scattered. Rich to your point about efficiencies, that really drives the outcomes. And that's across both the front performing side of servicing and the default servicing world.

Rich Kuegler (07:51)
Yeah, but there is some debate still out there about who actually said that quote first, but or who's gonna get the most. So we'll let the audience vote between Jason Myers and T. J. Harrington.

T.J. Harrington (08:01)
Jason Myers owns that all the way. I will not take ownership. Jason's great. I but he really the idea of innovation in the space, it's hard because so much is tied to investor allowables and what we try and say is, well, there's this cost savings. And so we're beginning to really drive that with white papers for all of our services here. And we're seeing that in the market for other places where can we combine efforts in a way that has better execution, that cuts days off FHA reconveyance because we're not playing, we're not playing operator going back and forth with communications for ordering services. There's things that we're doing in that in that space. And that tends to be where the efficiencies and innovation lies is pure execution.

Marvin Stone (08:42)
Yeah. So I'm gonna switch gears just a little bit. So on the vendor piece, Rich, you kind of brought that up. With respect to vendor management, when you talk to servicers, I know that they deal with a wide array of service provider partners on a variety of fronts. And then you've got the whole attorney networks and everything. It's just a hard business. What.. especially with the due diligence required and the audits required? I mean, can you kind of tell us what you're hearing from servicers on that front?

Rich Kuegler (09:12)
Yeah, it's big expense, number one, and very complex to try to navigate and manage on a regular basis. The requirements that each kind of milestone in the process have may put extra either pressure or information requirements or due diligence requirements on a servicer. And because of that, it becomes very difficult to try to make process enhancements or to make moves that you think might be helpful, just because the either the amount of time or the amount of extra due diligence that's required to bring on some new providers. 

So what I am hearing from our servicing clients and some others out in the market are that they're really looking for ways to streamline that, ways to reduce the overhead associated with managing, and also making sure that they have service providers that are going to be here for the long haul and also have all of the I guess you can call it table stakes of information security, data security, privacy, financial strength, all those kinds of things.

T.J. Harrington (10:16)
It's that is you hit the point the nail on the head, nail on the head, Rich. I mean the challenge really in in the pre-foreclosure space and really with foreclosure in general, the old way of doing it was to have the foreclosure attorneys, the trustees, do all the direct title and kind of manage all of that. And that had the advantage of delivering in time and having one place of responsibility for the performance or non-performance or other issues related to it. But what we found was that drove cost up. You weren't always providing, selecting the most efficient provider.

There was not uniformity in delivery and there wasn't and you had all your risk of eggs in one basket from a risk perspective, which is why we pushed nationally for a national directive in most instances to say, hey attorney vendors, hey trustees, use our national provider. We've contracted for SLAs, we have performance management, we have pricing advantages that we can use with them, which keeps the cost of foreclosure down.

And, by the way, attorneys, you don't really make that much money on doing that. So, wouldn't you rather give away something that's not very profitable for you? So that's what we've seen from a product selection standpoint. And what we've seen then on the other side is, well, now that you've got a national title vendor involved, well, what else do they have? Well, do they have appraisal? Do they have field services? Do they have data solutions? Do they have things that once they're involved and they're already being vendor managed, can we add more to their plate since they tend to be larger counterparties than other providers in the marketplace?

Rich Kuegler (11:39)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it also asks now you can ask the question, okay, what else could you provide that helps me make a better decision?

T.J. Harrington (11:46)
Absolutely. Yep.

Marvin Stone (11:48)
Well, and on that front, yeah, I mean obviously, you know, Stewart, you just mentioned all the companies that we own, T.J., across the whole default lifecycle.

One of the things we're working on toward is having that sort of single pane of glass that a servicer can look at to say what's going on with this property across all those different services? I mean, sort of, you know, from a dashboard standpoint, I mean, what would that change for a servicer who today maybe has some older brittle technology constellation of applications that they've sort of bolted on to make it happen? What does that do?

T.J. Harrington (12:22)
Yeah, so there's not a lot of vendor management in MSP and other related platforms, right? You have rails that are open for tasking. You don't always get visibility and products being ordered and typically it's ping pong. It's old-fashioned ping pong. It's I ordered it, it comes back.

I hit it back and kind of going back and forth really. And really a servicer doesn't want to be in operations, they want to be in oversight, right? They don't want to be in execution mode. They want to be in oversight of the ones provide the ones providing the muscle doing the work. And so really the tip of the spear for foreclosure is really this field services piece. It's really going out to the property, seeing if it's vacant or not. That is a pivotal piece of information and different services flow from that.

Now that information today in the standard workflow, that information comes back, it goes to the servicer, the servicer has to make it actionable and kick off the Rube Goldberg machine. Now imagine that happens automatically without a touch. And all those waterfalls and rule sets that that the business rules that we all manage to today that happen manually today. Imagine tomorrow that happens automatically and you're taking days and days off of FHA reconveyance.

Having that pane of glass lets you see what's happening, making sure the vendors are performing, making sure that they're abiding by the contract and doing the things with SLA. So you're in oversight mode. You have visibility into services you've never seen before. That's what we're developing today at Stewart to be able to do that because we have made investments into the default servicing in particular. You know, we've already had all the great assets that we perform in originations today that are very portable into the performing services from a recapture and services perspective that translate well.

But the next step stage for us was that default stage. We've made significant investments with MCS, with capabilities SVI, with some of the technology and services we've built and the centralized title team to be able to support the full life cycle of default. And being able to put those in one place with visibility, we really do think will drive just great outcomes and great visibility for servicers.

Marvin Stone (14:21)
Yeah, great. Great way to sum it all up. So, let's take a quick break. We’ll come back, we'll pick it up here because once the decisions are made from the data that servicers have, everything comes down to execution. So, stay with us, we'll be right back.

Mortgage Contracting Services (14:34)
When property risk increases, protecting asset value matters more than ever.

Mortgage Contracting Services delivers property preservation and field services designed to preserve assets and protect value. As part of the Stewart family, MCS has mortgage services covered from pre and post-default inspections to securing properties and coordinating maintenance and repairs, ensuring every asset is handled with care and precision. Winterization, debris removal, hazard abatement, and FHA conveyance-ready preparation are all executed with compliance-driven vendor oversight you can trust. 

MCS keeps properties in marketable condition, helping servicers meet regulatory and investor requirements while minimizing risk and protecting long-term value. So if you are looking for reliable property preservation, inspections, and maintenance, choose the partner built to protect your assets from the ground up. Mortgage Contracting Services, preserving properties, protecting value.

Marvin Stone (15:34)
Okay, and we're back. So, T.J., one of the things that we did not talk about was the consolidation in this space. And there's that's been in the news in a big, big way. Can you just touch on the consolidation and maybe who's doing what and how it's affecting the market?

T.J. Harrington (15:49)
It's been wild. You know, as far as much drama as there is in mortgage, I mean that's all I can say. 

Rich Kuegler (15:54)
This is where mortgage gets exciting.

T.J. Harrington (15:55)
Really exciting. So obviously earlier in the year we saw Rocket making big moves, acquiring Redfin, but they also acquired Mr. Cooper. You know, Mr. Cooper was one of the largest scale servicing and subservicing operations. We see Penny Mac acquiring Cenlar. You know, initially they were jettisoning the FSB, but looks like they're gonna keep the banking designation and potentially be one of the few subservicer banks in the space. 

You see Valon, which is a technology platform, really an AI-native technology platform. They had they were both a servicer and a technology. They sold their servicing book to Carrington, which was a significant win for Carrington. And then they're saying, hey, we're strong enough to, we've proven the technology work, we're strong enough to stand alone as a company, so they're doing that now. And you have a bidding war which was between two over two harbors, which is RoundPoint, between CrossCountry Mortgage and UWM and ultimately CrossCountry won that deal. You have Lakeview Bayview buying Guild Mortgage, kind of a reverse of what we've seen. So, you and you see loanDepot taking servicing and servicing in-house and you see UWM taking servicing in-house. So, there's battle lines and fences being drawn in the market of all these places. We're recognizing that having a servicing operation is incredibly valuable.

Every originator that is of size wants to be able to keep their keep their servicing in-house, if possible, the value add, the key the keeping their hands on their consumers. That’s the name of the game and building kind of an integrated system. Think about the gilded age of steel. They owned the coal, they owned the railways, they owned the steel production, vertical integration of systems.

Rich Kuegler (17:44)
And the hotel.

T.J. Harrington (17:45)
And the hotel. I mean even the company stores, yhe whole nine yards. That's what we're seeing, I think, in the equivalence of mortgage system.

Marvin Stone (17:53)
And real quick, Rich, one of the things that's most clear here is, T.J. when you mentioned Countrywide you really dated yourself. So wanted to call that out. Rich you're up.

T.J. Harrington (18:03)
I have gray hairs.

Rich Kuegler (18:07)
I was gonna say I'm glad he did it first. So, thank you. yeah, I mean I think that vertical integration really speaks to a desired state in a model that now allows a lender and servicer and really that that kind of an entity to have a full loan life cycle look at their portfolio but also at what's this consumer gonna do and that life of the loan is now takes on a different meaning and has different opportunities for refinance, for other products and services, for additional cross sell and really for wallet share with those homeowners.

Marvin Stone (18:45)
And that's great for servicers that can control everything from cradle to grave, in some aspects, but you still you know, kind of looking at the execution risk, it doesn't always make it easier to have everything on your own. I mean, you know, obviously we have this wide array of products throughout loss mit, all the, you know, even to post sale, the whole thing. So maybe T.J. talk a little bit about the execution side of it. I mean, what makes this business so hard? Just period.

T.J. Harrington (19:12)
Yeah, I mean really if you think about it, right, the way servicing is done and subservicing is done, it's a certain dollar amount per loan per month. That's what you get paid. And at the start of the month, that's the biggest pile of money that you're going to have, and every dollar, every people portion of the process that you're doing, every automation, every click drains that dollar down. And so really efficiency is the name of the game. Mistakes add up very, very quickly. And to your point about regulatory complexity and investor guidelines, you have very, very tight timelines and if you don't make them you have penalties. And so what do you do in in that world where everything is so highly regulated, so tight, how do you make money? How do you control for that? That's the execution risk. It's there's places where you're touching consumers that are at risk. How do you do right by them?

How do you do right by the investors that hold the MSRs? How do you do right by the regulatory authorities who have who have a tight control over what's going on? You have a lot of masters and not a lot of wiggle room. And so servicers are in a tough spot where execution on all of those fronts is so, so important.

Marvin Stone (20:17)
And Rich I think I cut you off. You were gonna say something?

Rich Kuegler (20:20)
Yeah, I was gonna say just in general, I mean, this really gets to the point of in in the default servicing space, time is money. And if you make a mistake in execution, that really impacts your ability to be profitable. It impacts your ability to make a well-informed decision on that on that loan and on that transaction that might impact things going forward. So having you know visibility into the portfolio, having the tools available to help monitor that portfolio, both from a credit perspective as well as a collateral perspective are very important both in servicing in performance servicing as well as in the default space because that insight really helps you determine what the next step should be on your waterfall.

T.J. Harrington (21:05)
You’re so right. And the lack of visibility. If you make the mistake once, you're probably making it a hundred or two hundred or three hundred or four hundred times because that's the way the controls work. And the lack of visibility and that lack of data sets and good reporting, you're not gonna make make a mistake once. You're gonna make it a bunch before you do it, and because of the size of the risk, the severity of the risk, it becomes a very expensive proposition.

Marvin Stone (21:28)
Yeah. It's like a mortgage exec told me years ago, he says, I don't mind making mistakes. I mind making mistakes at scale. So…

T.J. Harrington (21:35)
That's right. Yeah.

Marvin Stone (21:38)
So, kind of I guess walk through, you know, again, I've mentioned a couple of times that we have this wide range of products, but sort of talk about maybe like lightly, T.J., what the sort of happy path would be. You know, if a servicer has maybe for loss mit, they've got the right data, they've got the right partner, maybe talk about what it looks like to not order duplicate products by mistake or not pay penalties because you missed a date, that sort of thing.

T.J. Harrington (22:06)
The happiest path is the consumer runs into a speed bump in their financial life. The servicer knows early, does outreach, does an equity analysis saying, hey, you got an opportunity to sell your property. You can get out from underneath this. Okay, here you go. I sold the property, bam, no hit to credit, you're off on the world, you walk away with some money in your pocket. That's the happiest path.

From there it's it gets progressively a little bit grimmer where okay, well I need to stay in the house. What can I do? There's loss mitigation options depending on what loan program that you're in. Here's what here's what it is. And having a quick analysis on your title on the valuation of the property understanding what is available to you. 

So, if you have a bunch of judgment lanes because you've been having other road bumps in your life, that may defeat your ability to get a mod or other program availability. You know, there's all kinds of factors that go into that. Or let's just say you can't keep the property or you're upside down. Maybe that's a short sale or maybe you want to the best what option is to walk away through a deed-in-lieu. Hey, what can we do to do a quick analysis to make sure that's free and clear?

Or, heaven forbid, there's not any easy answers and you have to go to foreclosure. The best outcome at that point is an investor buying out at the courthouse steps or going through an auction process. And, heaven forbid, it falls all the way down, it goes to REO. And in all during that that way you need field services, you need to make sure the property is secured. The longer you hold on to a property, the meter is running because you have cost to service, cost to hold that asset, and you have risk.

What happens if the house gets struck by lightning or vandalized, someone steals all the copper out of the place? We still don't talk about that anymore, but it still happens. The AC unit goes missing. All kinds of different risk associated with the longer you hold an asset. And so then there comes this balancing act where now the consumer has made their exit and you're having to make the investor whole. And what's the best execution path? And there's a math problem involved with that.

And we have all the solutions to help with that math problem through value through the valuations team, through what we do in title confirming any liens or judgments, HOA items, and through field services, code violations, other issues with the property. And together we give you a more fulsome picture of what the asset says so you, so the servicer can do what they're best and say this is the best exit to preserve value for the end investor in the mortgage, which in turn keeps the mortgage ecosystem going, makes money available for more loans and keeps rates down.

Marvin Stone (24:35)
And I guess that's a big piece of the Stewart's acquisition of MCS as in the property preservation space is we just are going to have more insight than most partners into what's going on with that property, the municipal lien violations, you know, the code violations and things like that. Those things are so hard to deal with. So hard. Yeah, but we have insight into them. 

But you know, the one thing, T.J., that I, and Rich, that I didn't cover at the beginning of this that we really should have talked about is there is no aspect of home ownership that is not more expensive today than it was years ago. Every part of it, so whether it's taxes or insurance or assessments on condos and all that's going on there, which is huge. The HOA fees, I just was reading that HOA fees have gone up by an average of 47% in the last 10 years or something. I mean, these fees are huge, interest rates are higher, and property values have not really come down to compensate for any of that. So, you're still paying taxes, higher taxes on higher property values, et cetera. I mean, it's kind of like for the person who's bought their house in the last few years, where do they turn?

T.J. Harrington (25:43)
Marvin, I'm so depressed now.

Marvin Stone (25:45)
Sorry. Well, I just think it's I think it's you know, we see some things in the numbers in default that are concerning.

T.J. Harrington (25:54)
You're absolutely right. And I think that owning a home is still a good deal, that there's still a math problem between that and renting where there's equity and the American dream is still alive. I think it's certainly suffering from an affordability issue. And to put it bluntly, there's probably a group of people who have overextended themselves for homeownership who maybe don't need to don't fit in the box of home ownership right now. Those things have happened, the math has changed, and there should be a graceful way for them to exit, preserve some of that equity and walk away better off than they started and to kind of rebuild themselves financially and hopefully have a have a better run at it. You know, that's the hard truth right now. 

And I think we're macroeconomically pursuing policies that will make homes more affordable, add supply, bring down rents, reduce regulation to lower the cost of everything to be able to make it more achievable. But we're going through that cycle right now and unfortunately a default cycle is a natural part of that where we get inventory back in the market and the kind of circle of life of housing and mortgage continues.

Marvin Stone (27:05)
Yeah, for sure. And I'm not trying to be a downer on homeownership for sure, because everybody's got a, you know, invested stake in making sure that works for the entire country. However, I think from a servicer standpoint, servicers are reading the tea leaves and seeing that there's defaults are coming and they're going to need scale partners to be able to probably handle what's coming. And so if they need scale partners to handle what's coming, obviously Stewart's you know, been around for 130 years and we've got hundreds of offices around the country and a large centralized shop that with Stewart Lender Services that handles all aspects of the default life cycle. 

So, I mean not to put in a big pitch, but it is important to get ready because when things happen, I mean we were all around when it happened last time in a big way and all of a sudden everybody was searching for scale partners and it was a real crunch. So Rich, any final thoughts before we close things out?

Rich Kuegler (27:59)
Yeah, was gonna say in that in that time, Marvin, it's too late. So, the time to start looking at your process, excuse me, the time to start looking at controls, the time to start looking at decisioning is really now, before there is a wave or before something does happen. Not to be the you know, the chicken little going out there and doing it, but we all know that that market cycles occur. And that's one of the reasons that Stewart has gone out and assembled what we feel to be a very, very competitive set of capabilities and tools that can help guide servicers through the performing servicing as well as default servicing stages of the of the loan lifecycle. And, you know, we're excited about what we bring to the market and looking with servicers to do that.

Marvin Stone (28:43)
Great. And T.J., any final thoughts?

T.J. Harrington (28:46)
It's a wild world out there, Marvin, and we're doing the doing our best and we're here to help and everyone in the servicing space, whether you're performing servicing or default servicing, as problems arise, feel free to give us a call. We're happy to chat about it. 

You know, we spend our time, Rich and I and you, Marvin, spend our time out in the market hearing about what is what are best in class solutions and things going on. And we're a resource to have a conversation with. Even if we can't solve your problem, we probably know someone who can. And, you know, the challenges in the market are coming across from everybody and everybody's having a similar set of problems. We're hearing the same things and we're happy to share what we hear are people are moving towards to fix things and we're happy to be a partner there.

Marvin Stone (29:28)
Perfect. So, if you have any questions, reach out, give us a call, and that's it for this episode of Stewart in the Studio. 

That's it for Stewart in the Studio, where mortgage professionals turn for fresh thinking and real-world solutions. Find more episodes and insights at Stewart.com slash lender. We'll see you next time.

Disclaimer (29:45)
This podcast is for informational purposes only and reflects the views of the speakers. It should not be considered legal or business advice, and listeners should consult their own advisors before making decisions.